I think you can make them attack (like a automatic successful attack) and ask your players to roll a kind of save roll (dodge with dex for exemple). I remember my first game of MM with Eric Nieudan, we were attacked by a large group of gobelins. Everybody chose what they did and took some attacks on their failures. But in the goblins group there was a shaman (and nobody took car of him) so he prepared a spell and casted it on us. Eric asked the targeted characters to roll Dex to avoid the kind of fireball he threw.
Maybe you can find funny things to create big monsters attacks. with a dR for exemple. The monster has a dR (maybe dR8) each round, it rolls its die, when the die step down to nothing, the monster makes his special attack. I don't know if it's a good idea...
I think it's really depending on what kind of dangerous you want your game. And to be "honnest" with your players. For the goblin shaman, Eric told us that a big goblin with strange symbols was saying funny words with doing funny moves... so we knew that we had to do something... If you say nothing and suddendly you say "you're dead, hahaha ! An evil wizzard changes you in a piece a shit with a mighty spell ! " when your players think that the ennemies only do something when they miss a roll... maybe it's a bit unfair ;)
When using defensive rolls, it's a good idea to use various characteristics, instead of DEX only. Otherwise, it becomes way more important than all the other scores : a good DEX allows a PC to dodge all the time, hit on every ranged or finesse attack, succeed at all craft checks…
Seriously, it's not a saving roll, you can make a charsima roll to impress your opponents : you take an arrow and you don't move at all ! They could run away... Ok, you take the damages !
Yup: it's all about fight choreography: make it interesting and fun and dangerous for everyone.
Which isn't entirely separate from tactics actually: the super agile thief who keeps avoiding arrows, and the paladin weaving a barrier of steel in with their blade are the first targets for the evil sorcerer's mindkiller spell.
Having run Dungeon World before, it's been extensively discussed. I've seen good advice on how to make monsters weaker or stronger when only the players roll: - The monster is so dangerous that even approaching it is difficult (a wizard with a fire shield, a giant with a very long reach). In this case, rolling to attack is not enough, you also have to make a roll to manage to get close without getting harmed. For MM, use the complex turn rules. - You can also represent a very aggressive monster this way: maybe the PC has to defend against several attacks each turn. - On the contrary, most surrounded monsters can't easily handle several opponents at once: the first player rolls to hit, but other players get an automatic success and directly roll damage. It means you won't have a lone mook resisting the whole party. Of course, don't use it for bosses.
Bruno Bord I have my version of that same rule: you roll with disadvantage when fighting a monster with more HD than you have levels. (And if you are mean, a group of monsters whose total HD is more than your level.)
Well, it's simpler to roll with an advantage, but the TBH solution provides more granularity. Let's say that you have a 4th level fighter that reached 18 in STR after putting some levels in it. When fighting a 12 HD lich in TBH, he would have a 50% chance to hit, against 81% in MM. If the same fighter goes against a 5 HD necromancer, he would still have a 81% chance to hit in MM, but with TBH, the chance increases to 85%. While TBH's "level difference" mechanic is clunky, it's way better at differentiating "strong" opponents from "way too strong for you" opponents.
I know, Whidou (though I didn't work out the stats, so thanks for that). But one of the design goals for MM is: No Arithmetics and I want to stick to it.
It actually feels great to play a game without arithmetics :) But do you have an alternative solution? Or do you think distinguishing between Advantage / Straight roll / Disadvantage is good enough?
There an another element : the fiction ! You don't fight a dragon and a strong orc in the same way. Ok if the orc is one level upper than you, you have the same roll to hit him and the dragon ( STR with disadvantage) but HP are not the same, the damages if you fail are very differents too... but most important, the dragon is certainly terrifying, it's very hard to approch him, he's certainly able to make area attacks... he can go in the sky... and lot of different things you can use to make it very dangerous.
One thing I discovered the last time Eric and I spoke is that I've been running the game wrong... but I like it that way: basically, I've been asking for one roll per attack as opposed to one roll only. This increases the chances of a failure even for PCs with high scores. So I think I'll stick to this.
I don't know but I love this monster !
ReplyDeleteTo be honnest, I'm not sure to well understand the question... ;)
ReplyDeleteI mean the monsters, even powerful ones, are only good at fighting if their opponent isn't.
ReplyDeleteI think you can make them attack (like a automatic successful attack) and ask your players to roll a kind of save roll (dodge with dex for exemple).
ReplyDeleteI remember my first game of MM with Eric Nieudan, we were attacked by a large group of gobelins.
Everybody chose what they did and took some attacks on their failures.
But in the goblins group there was a shaman (and nobody took car of him) so he prepared a spell and casted it on us.
Eric asked the targeted characters to roll Dex to avoid the kind of fireball he threw.
Maybe you can find funny things to create big monsters attacks. with a dR for exemple.
The monster has a dR (maybe dR8) each round, it rolls its die, when the die step down to nothing, the monster makes his special attack.
I don't know if it's a good idea...
Sounds good. I've done stuff like the goblin thing in the past, but I felt a bit like I was cheating. :-)
ReplyDeleteI don't think that. But a lot of people do ^^
ReplyDeleteI think it's really depending on what kind of dangerous you want your game.
ReplyDeleteAnd to be "honnest" with your players.
For the goblin shaman, Eric told us that a big goblin with strange symbols was saying funny words with doing funny moves... so we knew that we had to do something...
If you say nothing and suddendly you say "you're dead, hahaha ! An evil wizzard changes you in a piece a shit with a mighty spell ! " when your players think that the ennemies only do something when they miss a roll... maybe it's a bit unfair ;)
When using defensive rolls, it's a good idea to use various characteristics, instead of DEX only. Otherwise, it becomes way more important than all the other scores : a good DEX allows a PC to dodge all the time, hit on every ranged or finesse attack, succeed at all craft checks…
ReplyDeleteThat's great advice Whidou! I think I may include a piece of advice on running combat in the book...
ReplyDeleteWhidou yep. "I'm trying to avoid this arrow using... my high Charisma score! Yes! I'm seducing it!" :p
ReplyDeleteYou are hit by the arrow but you are not dishevelled and you keep smiling with your white teeth : you take only the half of the damages !
ReplyDelete;)
If you make your Charisma roll a god falls in love with you. You're protected from the arrow, but now you have bigger problems. :-D
ReplyDeleteSeriously, it's not a saving roll, you can make a charsima roll to impress your opponents : you take an arrow and you don't move at all ! They could run away...
ReplyDeleteOk, you take the damages !
Well… letting the player choose which stat to use isn't really gonna solve the issue ^_^".
ReplyDeleteYup: it's all about fight choreography: make it interesting and fun and dangerous for everyone.
ReplyDeleteWhich isn't entirely separate from tactics actually: the super agile thief who keeps avoiding arrows, and the paladin weaving a barrier of steel in with their blade are the first targets for the evil sorcerer's mindkiller spell.
Having run Dungeon World before, it's been extensively discussed. I've seen good advice on how to make monsters weaker or stronger when only the players roll:
ReplyDelete- The monster is so dangerous that even approaching it is difficult (a wizard with a fire shield, a giant with a very long reach). In this case, rolling to attack is not enough, you also have to make a roll to manage to get close without getting harmed. For MM, use the complex turn rules.
- You can also represent a very aggressive monster this way: maybe the PC has to defend against several attacks each turn.
- On the contrary, most surrounded monsters can't easily handle several opponents at once: the first player rolls to hit, but other players get an automatic success and directly roll damage. It means you won't have a lone mook resisting the whole party. Of course, don't use it for bosses.
Eric Nieudan in The Black Hack, there's a rule for powerful opponents... Wouldn't it mitigate the PC strength? https://the-black-hack.jehaisleprintemps.net/english/#powerful-opponents
ReplyDeletethe-black-hack.jehaisleprintemps.net - The Black Hack -- English
Bruno Bord I have my version of that same rule: you roll with disadvantage when fighting a monster with more HD than you have levels. (And if you are mean, a group of monsters whose total HD is more than your level.)
ReplyDeleteEric Nieudan ok, I didn't have the book at hand, thx for the information.
ReplyDeleteWell, it's simpler to roll with an advantage, but the TBH solution provides more granularity. Let's say that you have a 4th level fighter that reached 18 in STR after putting some levels in it.
ReplyDeleteWhen fighting a 12 HD lich in TBH, he would have a 50% chance to hit, against 81% in MM.
If the same fighter goes against a 5 HD necromancer, he would still have a 81% chance to hit in MM, but with TBH, the chance increases to 85%.
While TBH's "level difference" mechanic is clunky, it's way better at differentiating "strong" opponents from "way too strong for you" opponents.
I know, Whidou (though I didn't work out the stats, so thanks for that). But one of the design goals for MM is: No Arithmetics and I want to stick to it.
ReplyDeleteIt actually feels great to play a game without arithmetics :) But do you have an alternative solution? Or do you think distinguishing between Advantage / Straight roll / Disadvantage is good enough?
ReplyDeleteThere an another element : the fiction !
ReplyDeleteYou don't fight a dragon and a strong orc in the same way.
Ok if the orc is one level upper than you, you have the same roll to hit him and the dragon ( STR with disadvantage) but HP are not the same, the damages if you fail are very differents too... but most important, the dragon is certainly terrifying, it's very hard to approch him, he's certainly able to make area attacks... he can go in the sky... and lot of different things you can use to make it very dangerous.
Guillaume has a great point: it's not just about the chance to hit. And I'm not bothered about the lack of granularity.
ReplyDeleteTrue, I like Guillaume's answer. It's not really self-evident when just reading the Zero rules, but there are creative ways to handle this in play.
ReplyDeleteOne thing I discovered the last time Eric and I spoke is that I've been running the game wrong... but I like it that way: basically, I've been asking for one roll per attack as opposed to one roll only. This increases the chances of a failure even for PCs with high scores. So I think I'll stick to this.
ReplyDeleteHey if it works for you, who am I to say you're doing it wrong?
ReplyDeleteI only give to monsters traits so if it fits, PCs need to gain the upper hand, unless they roll with desavantage.
ReplyDelete