From Brian Ashford:
1 - I really like the way you have deconstructed Whitehack's classes into the three different area's of training.
2 - I'm not keen on the title, but I do like coffee and the monsters drinking coffee are ace! (I'd have called it Yin Yang Hack)
3 - I love the equipment tables, I'll definitely be using that.
4 - Burning a point of Con for a HD reroll feels weird to me. I think I'd just give new character a single free reroll and if they mess that one up too they are stuck with it (low HP builds character).
5 - You have found so many great uses for the Black Hack Usage Dice. The multiple types of cash is really nicely done. Armour looks good too.
6 - I'm still not keen on rolling against stats for attack and defence.
7 - Your levelling up paragraph does a lot of work, there is a lot of system squeezed in here well done! I would maybe let players reroll their HD hoping for a better pot of HP, even if they don't buy a new HD.
8 - I'm never a fan of multiple attack rolls, and I think that letting players buy additional attacks could break the balance pretty quick. I know you want something pretty good for combat trained characters to take but this looks like too much to me. How about limiting it to one additional style per combat training? That would make the maximum attacks from levels 1 through 10, 1,2,3,4,4,4,5,5,5,6 (and for this a player would really have to specialise). That's still more than I would like but it's a little more contained.
9 - I just saw that you are only supposed to roll the d20 once in a combat round, how does that work with multiple attacks? And with multiple opponents? I can remember this causing issues when I was running Advanced Fighting Fantasy 2nd ed.
10 - There are an awful lot of dice mentioned throughout the text and it's not always clear which ones are just to be rolled (like damage dice) and which ones are to be rolled as risk dice. Perhaps it would be clearer if you extended the 'dR' notation so that a Risk d6 is d6R? Also are there times when you roll a risk dice when it isn't at risk of dropping (rolling hireling abilities for example)?
11 - Really fun collection of monsters!
Wow, sorry, that's quite a lot. Ignore/discuss/share as you like. I'm more than happy to chat if you want more detail or if you didn't understand some of my ramblings. :-)
I'm curious about 9/
ReplyDeleteI understand that you roll a d20 for each attack, right ?
I'll answer these in the morning - pretty much fried right now - but no, you don't. It's always one roll per turn per player, unless the referee declares a complex action.
ReplyDeleteSo if you're fighting several opponents and you fail your check, you take damage from all of them.
If you succeed and you have several attacks, you deal the damage for each of them.
Ok thanks, good night, Sir !
ReplyDelete📍
ReplyDeleteAs we played last time, it's not multiple attack but multiple damage. You only attack one but do double damage...or nothing. Powerfull but dangerous, i like.
ReplyDeleteDocteur Chestel You can actually attack several targets if they're in range.
ReplyDeleteMy mantis is happy. With its 4 arms, it can fire 2 long range targets and strike 2 short range opponents. Please Eric Nieudan let me play it before next change, i'm sure it will have an heroic death
ReplyDeleteSean Wills I wish I could witness one of you games. And not only out of game design interest :)
ReplyDeleteI'm still interested in discussing points 4, 6, 7 and 10 if anyone has disagrees or has something to add.
ReplyDeleteI need to find the time to respond, Brian Ashford, but I will!
ReplyDelete4. You're not the first one to balk at this. I don't know, I think it's an interesting trade-off. You can see CON as a resource you can use to get buff. You train so hard that your long term health is endangered, like Rocky.
ReplyDelete6. Not sure this is what you mean, but you only roll once, whether you're defending or not. Sometimes you're just shooting arrows at enemies with no missile weapons, and failing your check means you just miss.
ReplyDeleteI see the combat check as an answer to 'how are you managing this turn?', if that helps wrapping your head around the idea.
7. Rerolling HD for free at level up is certainly an option. Probably one that raises HP too fast for me, especially with the CON sacrifice rule. (Though if you're not using that, free rerolls would be perfectly valid IMO).
ReplyDelete10. This is just a great idea! I'll probably do that - or find another way to identify individual risk dice.
ReplyDeleteI don't think there's ever any occurrence of a dR that doesn't get stepped down, no.
Brian Ashford Thanks again for the feedback and all the very positive entries!
ReplyDeleteEric Nieudan re 6: my problem with using stats for your combat roll is that they are randomly generated so very variable. One of the things I always liked about D&D is that it was pretty strict with the to hit rolls, keeping everyone at a similar ability level which enabled the game to remain balanced (both in terms of comparing one PC to another and in balancing encounters) as the levels progressed.
ReplyDeleteIt was my biggest problem with The Black Hack and it would be the first thing I would change if running MM. Not that that means that you should necessarily change it, it could just be a taste thing.
Eric Nieudan I'm always happy to help, I enjoy poking around systems and I know that is important to get as many eyes on each new system as possible make sure that you've covered all the implications of your various mechanics.
ReplyDeleteBrian Ashford I'm not going to change the roll-under mechanic. It's definitely not fair, but as Sean Wills says characters can get better. And I have a tendency to be less lenient with people who think that a STR score of 17 makes their character invincible :)
ReplyDeleteThough I'm curious: how would you run combat, Brian Ashford?
ReplyDeleteEric Nieudan I'm not sure. I'm really enjoying running Whitehack just now, so my first instinct is just to go with that, give PCs a base Attack Value of 10 to roll against which goes up by 1 for each level of Combat Training.
ReplyDeleteThat would give a narrower range of target numbers for the combat rolls giving everyone a chance to hit but ensuring no one is too good. It would also mean that players don't run out of options to enhance their combat characters too quick as their characters are advancing more slowly.
Advantage and Disadvantage would still be crucial as they have the most effect in the middle of the die's range.
Anyway, I'm not sure exactly as I'd have to look at the maths, but I'd do something like this.
It's a good idea. That'd make combat a much more dangerous option, as even the best fighter has a 60% chance to hit and avoid being hurt at level one. Which is certainly old school!
ReplyDeleteEric Nieudan Exactly. :-)
ReplyDeleteIt's down to the feel you are going for but I run level-based OSR systems to get that whole meaningful progression, zero to hero aesthetic. Whitehack maintains that while giving you massive freedom to create any hero you like. The Black Hack mostly hand waved it all away.
As written Macchiato Monsters has the freedom of Whitehack's character generation but loses the structure of tightly controlled initial power levels and subsequent progression. That could be better for some gamers who just want to jump in and have a very competent character to start with, and it possibly works better for one-offs and very short campaigns, but personally I'd rather have the structure there for longer games closer initial characters.
Brian Ashford It's a very good analysis.
ReplyDeleteThe thing with adding a combat stat is that Dex and Strength lose most of their usefulness. You'd have to resort to stat bonuses to make them count again. It's a downward spiral of complexity that could lead to something very similar to Whitehack.
Eric Nieudan Well, that's the obvious progression but not necessarily the only one.
ReplyDeleteDex I find is always useful. Even with a combat stat, Dex could be used in combat for actions other than attacking: sneaking, dodging, feinting, swinging from chandlers, etc. It usually gets a lot of use outside of combat too.
Str though probably will be of little use, but the same is already true of Con, so one option would be to combine Str and Con into a single Brawn stat.
I've considered doing this myself in other games. I thought of combining Int and Wis too as the distinction between them is vague at best.
Now if you're talking about touching the sacrosanct stats, I'm going to ask you to leave! :P
ReplyDeleteYeah, you and everyone else!
ReplyDeleteIt was just an example though, there is almost always a way to change a system without making it more complicated, you've just got to find it.
The hard part is to know where to draw the line before the game becomes too different from your original idea.
ReplyDeleteEric Nieudan When I decide I am going to work on something (a game, a campaign, a story, whatever), I always try to write a single sentence explaining what it is and why I am excited about it so that if I am ever stuck between one of two options I can check back and see which of the options better fits the original intent.
ReplyDeleteIt also helps for rekindling my excitement if my enthusiasm starts to wane.
Sound. I don't do this often enough. And when I do I usually forget about the initial statement :)
ReplyDeleteEric Nieudan My memory is terrible so I try to write everything down!
ReplyDeleteSean Wills You could, but I think it might have too much of an effect. Since the damage dice increases with each addition of Combat Training, the effect of the critical is increasing too. If you increase the frequency of crits too you will be mutiplying the importance of a few lucky rolls and it might be too much.
ReplyDeleteSince combat training can only increase the hit dice from d6 to d8 to d10, maybe you could start increasing the odds of a crit if further Combat Training is taken after those first two to compensate for not continuing to enhance the dice itself.
That being said, I'm not a big fan of crits and fumbles anyway so I'm not really the one to ask. When I am running Whitehack everyone crits on a roll dead on their target (so with an AV 12, you crit if you roll a 12) but I have crits equate to max damage rather than the usual double damage.